when to apply merit for grub control

when to apply merit for grub control

Image source: Bing (Web (fair-use with source credit))

If you've ever rolled back a patch of dead turf and found fat, C-shaped white grubs curled in the soil, you already know the frustration. The real question most homeowners and lawn pros ask isn't whether to treat. It's when to apply Merit for grub control so the product actually works.

Get the timing right and one application protects your lawn all season. Get it wrong and you've wasted money while the grubs keep feeding.

Merit, the brand name for the active ingredient imidacloprid, is one of the most widely used preventive grub insecticides on the market. But its effectiveness hinges almost entirely on applying it at the correct stage of the grub life cycle. In our research across university extension recommendations and manufacturer specifications, the consensus is clear: timing matters more than product choice.

Let's walk through exactly how to nail it.

Quick Answer

Apply Merit (imidacloprid) from late May through mid-July in most northern and transition-zone states. The target is newly hatched, first-instar grubs, which are small and vulnerable. Soil temperatures at 4 inches deep should be reaching 60°F or above.

Water in granular formulations with ¼ to ½ inch of irrigation within 48 hours. One properly timed application provides 8 to 16 weeks of residual control.

Why Grub Timing Is the Make-or-Break Factor

Here's the thing about Merit that catches people off guard. It's not a rescue product. Imidacloprid works best against small, newly hatched grubs in their first instar stage, when they're roughly ¼ inch long and feeding aggressively near the soil surface.

Once grubs reach their third instar, often by late August or September, they're an inch or more long, deeper in the soil profile, and significantly harder to kill with Merit alone.

That means the entire game is about getting the product into the root zone before those tiny grubs start feeding. Apply too early and the residual may break down before peak egg hatch. Apply too late and the grubs are already too big for Merit to deliver reliable control.

The window isn't huge, but it's predictable once you understand what drives grub development.

The other factor people overlook is secondary damage. Skunks, raccoons, and birds will tear up your lawn looking for grubs, often causing more visible destruction than the grubs themselves. If you're seeing animals digging, the grub population is already well established and you've likely missed the preventive window for that season.

How Merit (Imidacloprid) Actually Works Against Grubs

Merit belongs to a class of insecticides called neonicotinoids. It's systemic, meaning grass roots absorb the active ingredient and move it through the plant tissue. Grubs die when they feed on treated roots and thatch.

It's both a stomach poison and a contact killer at the soil level.

The product comes in two main formulations you'll encounter:

  • Granular, broadcast with a spreader, then watered in. This is the most common consumer and professional format.
  • Liquid concentrate, mixed with water and sprayed, then watered in. Faster soil penetration, popular with lawn care operators.

Both formulations need the same thing to work: movement from the surface down into the top 1 to 2 inches of soil where young grubs are feeding. Without adequate watering after application, granular Merit sits on the surface and degrades under UV light before it ever reaches the target zone.

Manufacturer specifications indicate a residual window of roughly 8 to 16 weeks under normal conditions. That's enough to cover the entire egg-hatch and early-feeding period from mid-summer through early fall, provided you applied at the right starting point.

Understanding the Grub Life Cycle — And Why It Dictates Your Timing

grub life cycle stages diagram

Image source: Bing (Web (fair-use with source credit))

Everything about grub control timing traces back to the life cycle. White grubs are the larval stage of scarab beetles, and the most common species in North American lawns include Japanese beetles, European chafers, masked chafers, June bugs, and Oriental beetles. Each has slight variations, but the general pattern holds.

Adult beetles emerge from the soil in late spring to early summer. Japanese beetles, for example, typically peak in flight from mid-June through early July across the northern United States. The adults feed on ornamental plants, mate, and then females burrow back into turf to lay eggs.

Egg laying happens over a 2 to 4 week window.

Those eggs hatch in about 2 to 3 weeks. The tiny first-instar grubs begin feeding on grass roots near the surface. This is the stage you're targeting with Merit.

Through July and August, grubs molt into their second and third instars, growing larger and feeding more aggressively. By September and October, third-instar grubs are deep in the soil and preparing to overwinter.

The critical takeaway: adult beetle flight is your starting gun. Peak flight means eggs are going into the ground. Two to three weeks later, those eggs hatch and Merit needs to already be in the soil, waiting.

The Two Windows: Preventive vs. Curative Application

This is where most of the confusion comes from, so let's break it down cleanly.

Preventive application is what Merit was designed for. You apply before or just as eggs are hatching, so the active ingredient is already in the root zone when tiny grubs start feeding. This is the late May through mid-July window for most regions.

You're stopping damage before it starts.

Curative application means you're treating grubs that are already present and actively causing damage. This typically happens in late July through September. Here's the problem: Merit is not the best curative option.

By the time you see damage or find large grubs, imidacloprid's effectiveness drops off significantly against third-instar larvae.

For curative situations, products containing trichlorfon (Dylox) are the standard recommendation from university extension services. Dylox works on contact and can knock down larger grubs within days. Some labels allow a higher rate of Merit for curative use, but results are inconsistent compared to a true curative chemistry.

The practical upshot: if you know you have a history of grub problems in your lawn, don't wait for damage. Go preventive with Merit in early to mid-summer. If you're already seeing brown patches and finding large grubs in August, switch to a curative product instead.

How to Decide: Are You Preventing or Treating?

Use this simple decision framework to figure out which path you're on.

Go preventive with Merit if:

  • You had grub damage or high grub counts in the previous year
  • You live in an area with known Japanese beetle or European chafer pressure
  • You're applying between late May and mid-July
  • You haven't yet seen brown patches or animal digging
  • You want season-long protection from a single application

Go curative with a different product if:

  • It's already August or later and you're finding large grubs
  • You're seeing irregular brown patches that peel back like carpet
  • Skunks or raccoons are actively digging in your lawn
  • You missed the preventive window and grubs are already in their second or third instar

If you're somewhere in between, say mid-July with small grubs just starting to appear, Merit can still work at the preventive rate. But once you're past that point, you're fighting an uphill battle with imidacloprid.

Regional Timing Guide — When to Apply Based on Where You Live

Grub species and climate vary enough across the country that a single calendar date doesn't work everywhere. Here's a general breakdown based on university extension recommendations and regional pest pressure patterns.

Region Primary Grub Species Peak Adult Flight Best Merit Application Window
Northeast (NY, PA, New England) Japanese beetle, European chafer Mid-June to early July Late May to early July
Midwest (OH, IL, MI, IN) Japanese beetle, European chafer, masked chafer Mid-June to mid-June Late May to mid-July
Mid-Atlantic (VA, MD, DE, NJ) Japanese beetle, European chafer, masked chafer Early to mid-June Mid-May to early July
Southeast (NC, SC, GA) Japanese beetle, masked chafer, Oriental beetle Late May to mid-June Early May to mid-June
Transition Zone (TN, KY, MO) Multiple species overlapping Late May to early June Mid-May to late June
Pacific Northwest (WA, OR) European chafer, black turfgrass ataenius Late May to mid-June Mid-May to mid-June
Read also  How to Add Organic Matter to Soil

A few important notes on this table. These windows are guidelines, not hard rules. A warm spring can push adult flight and egg hatch two or three weeks earlier.

A cool, wet spring delays everything. That's why soil temperature and direct observation of beetle activity are more reliable than any calendar date.

Also, the Southeast and parts of the transition zone deal with multiple grub species that emerge at different times. In those areas, a single application in late May to early June often covers the first wave, but a follow-up treatment or a product with longer residual may be needed for later-hatching species.

Soil Temperature: The Most Reliable Timing Signal

soil temperature measurement lawn

Image source: Bing (Web (fair-use with source credit))

If you want to move beyond guesswork, soil temperature is your best tool. Grub development is driven by accumulated heat units, not the calendar. A soil thermometer pushed 4 inches into the turf gives you a real-time readout of what's happening below the surface.

Here's what the numbers tell you:

  • 50°F and below, Grubs are dormant or not yet active. Too early for application in most cases.
  • 50, 60°F, Adult beetles are beginning to emerge and lay eggs. Start preparing to apply.
  • 60, 70°F, Egg hatch is underway or imminent. This is your target window for Merit application.
  • Above 70°F, First-instar grubs are actively feeding. Apply immediately if you haven't already.

The practical approach is to start checking soil temperatures in mid-May for southern regions and late May for northern ones. When you hit that 60°F threshold at 4-inch depth for several consecutive days, it's time to apply. Many university extension services publish weekly soil temperature maps during spring, which can save you from buying a thermometer if you trust the local data.

One more thing worth noting. Soil in full sun warms faster than shaded areas. If your lawn has both, the sunny sections may hatch grubs a week or two before the shady spots.

That's normal. Apply based on the warmest areas of your property, since that's where the first grubs will appear.

Step-by-Step: How to Apply Merit for Maximum Effectiveness

grub control granular spreader application

Image source: Bing (Web (fair-use with source credit))

Once you've confirmed the timing is right, the application itself is straightforward. But skipping steps is the number one reason treatments fail. Here's the process that delivers consistent results.

Step 1: Mow before you apply. Cut your lawn to normal height the day before. This helps granules reach the soil surface instead of getting trapped in tall grass blades.

Step 2: Check your spreader calibration. Whether you're using a broadcast or drop spreader, make sure it's set to the rate specified on the product label. For most Merit granular formulations, that's roughly 2.8 pounds per 1,000 square feet, but always verify against the specific product you're using.

Step 3: Apply evenly. Walk at a steady pace and overlap your passes slightly. Uneven application creates streaks of untreated turf where grubs survive and cause damage.

Step 4: Water in immediately. This is non-negotiable. Apply ¼ to ½ inch of irrigation within 48 hours of spreading granules. For liquid formulations, a light watering after spraying helps move the product into the root zone.

Step 5: Keep foot traffic off the lawn. Avoid mowing or heavy use for 24 to 48 hours after watering in. You want the product to settle into the soil undisturbed.

Step 6: Evaluate in 2 to 4 weeks. Dig a few small test holes in areas where you've had grub problems before. If you find live grubs, you may need to reassess timing or product choice for next year.

What Happens If You Apply at the Wrong Time

Let's be honest about the consequences of bad timing, because this is where most people waste their money.

Applying too early (April to early May in most regions): The residual activity of imidacloprid begins declining as soon as it's in the soil. If you apply six or eight weeks before egg hatch, the concentration may have dropped below effective levels by the time grubs appear. You get partial control at best.

Applying too late (August or later): Third-instar grubs are large, deep, and tough. Merit's efficacy against this stage is poor. You'll kill some grubs but not enough to prevent visible damage.

The lawn still turns brown and animals still dig.

Not watering in granules: Without water, Merit granules sit on the surface and break down under sunlight. The active ingredient never reaches the root zone where grubs are feeding. This is the most common application error and the easiest to fix.

Applying during drought stress: If your lawn is already drought-stressed and not actively growing, root uptake of the systemic insecticide is reduced. Water your lawn a day or two before application if conditions are dry.

The bottom line: a well-timed single application outperforms a poorly timed application every time. If you miss the window, skip it and plan for next year rather than throwing product at a problem it can't solve.

Merit vs. Other Grub Control Options — When to Choose What

Merit isn't the only tool in the shed, and it's not always the right one. Here's how it stacks up against the most common alternatives.

Product Active Ingredient Type Best Timing Grub Stage Targeted
Merit Imidacloprid Preventive Late May to mid-July First instar
Dylox Trichlorfon Curative Late July to September Second and third instar
Acelepryn Chlorantraniliprole Preventive Late May to early July First instar, lower environmental impact
Meridian Thiamethoxam Preventive Late May to mid-July First instar, popular with professionals
Sevin Carbaryl Curative Late summer All stages, broad-spectrum
Beneficial nematodes Heterorhabditis bacteriophora Biological Late August to September All stages, requires careful handling

Merit's main advantage is its long residual and proven track record. It's been the go-to preventive grub treatment for decades. Acelepryn (chlorantraniliprole) is gaining ground because it has a lower toxicity profile for non-target organisms and pollinators, but it's typically more expensive and more common in the professional market.

For homeowners who want a simple, reliable preventive program, Merit remains the standard. For those dealing with an active infestation in late summer, Dylox is the better call. And for anyone looking to avoid synthetic insecticides entirely, beneficial nematodes are a viable biological option, though they require precise soil moisture and temperature conditions to work.

Common Mistakes That Waste Your Time and Money

After reviewing aggregate user feedback and extension service guidance, these are the errors that show up again and again.

  • Waiting until you see damage. By the time turf turns brown, grubs have been feeding for weeks. You're already in curative territory, not preventive.
  • Applying by calendar alone. "I always treat on July 4th" is a recipe for failure in years when spring is unusually warm or cool. Use soil temperature and beetle activity as your guide.
  • Skipping the watering step. Dry granules on the surface do nothing. Water them in.
  • Using Merit as a curative in September. It's the wrong tool for large grubs. Switch to Dylox or accept that you'll deal with the damage and plan better next year.
  • Over-applying. More product doesn't mean better control. Follow label rates exactly. Over-application increases cost and environmental load without improving results.
  • Ignoring grub species differences. If you're in an area with multiple species, one application might not cover the entire hatch period. Know what species you're dealing with.
  • Applying to dormant warm-season grass. If Bermuda or zoysia is still brown in spring, root uptake is minimal. Wait until the turf greens up and is actively growing.
Read also  Common Lawn Diseases & Treatments

Expert Tips for Nailing Grub Control Timing Year After Year

These are the habits that separate people who consistently control grubs from those who fight the same battle every season.

Track adult beetle activity in your own yard. Japanese beetles feeding on roses, grapes, or linden trees are a visible signal. When you see them in numbers, eggs are going into your lawn within days. Start your countdown from there.

Keep a simple log. Note the date you first see adult beetles, the date you apply, and any grub counts you find when doing fall garden work. After two or three years, you'll have a personalized timing map for your property that's more accurate than any regional guideline.

Use degree-day models if available. Several university extension services offer online tools that calculate grub development based on accumulated heat units in your specific area. These take the guesswork out of timing and are worth bookmarking.

Don't forget about irrigation timing. If you're on a water restriction or your sprinkler system is down, delay application until you can water in properly. Dry-applied Merit is wasted Merit.

Consider a split application in high-pressure areas. In regions with multiple grub species, some lawn care operators apply half the rate in late May and the other half in early July. This extends the protective window across overlapping hatches. It's not standard practice, but it works in tough situations.

Plan your fall aeration around grub timing. If you core-aerate in early fall after a Merit application, you're disrupting the treated soil zone. Either aerate before you apply or wait until the following spring.

Safety, Pollinators, and Legal Considerations

Imidacloprid is a neonicotinoid, and that class of insecticides has come under significant scrutiny for its impact on pollinators. Here's what you need to know to use Merit responsibly.

Never apply to flowering plants or weeds in bloom. Grubs live in turf, not flower beds. If clover or dandelions are blooming in your lawn, mow them off before applying. The risk to bees comes from contaminated pollen and nectar, not from treated grass blades.

Check your state and local regulations. As of 2026, several states and municipalities have restrictions on neonicotinoid use, particularly in areas near water bodies or in jurisdictions with pollinator protection ordinances. Some states require a pesticide applicator license for certain formulations of Merit. Always verify compliance before purchasing.

Follow label PPE requirements. At minimum, wear gloves and long sleeves during application. Granular products can be dusty, and liquid concentrates require standard chemical handling precautions.

Prevent runoff. Don't apply before heavy rain events that could wash product into storm drains. Keep granules off driveways, sidewalks, and patios. Sweep any stray granules back onto the lawn.

Store and dispose of properly. Keep the product in its original container in a cool, dry location away from children and pets. Dispose of empty containers according to local hazardous water guidelines.

The environmental profile of imidacloprid is a legitimate concern, and it's worth considering lower-impact alternatives like chlorantraniliprole if pollinator exposure is a priority for your property. But when used according to label directions on turf only, Merit has a strong safety record spanning decades of field use.

Frequently Asked Questions

Can I apply Merit in the fall?

Merit is not recommended as a fall application for preventive control. By fall, grubs are large and the product's effectiveness drops significantly. If you're finding grubs in September, use a curative product like Dylox instead.

Plan to apply Merit the following late spring or early summer.

How long after applying Merit will grubs die?

First-instar grubs typically die within 24 to 72 hours of feeding on treated roots. You won't see dead grubs on the surface. The way to evaluate success is to dig small test holes 2 to 4 weeks after application and check for live grubs in areas where you previously had problems.

Will Merit kill earthworms?

Imidacloprid has low toxicity to earthworms at labeled application rates. University research has not shown significant earthworm population reductions from standard turf applications of Merit. The primary non-target concern is pollinators, not soil organisms.

Can I apply Merit and fertilizer at the same time?

Yes, you can apply Merit granules at the same time as a granular fertilizer, provided both products are compatible and you're following label rates for each. Many lawn care programs combine grub control with early-summer fertilization. Just make sure both products get watered in together.

What if it rains heavily right after I apply?

Moderate rain is actually helpful for watering in granular Merit. But a heavy downpour within hours of application can cause runoff, especially on slopes. If significant rain is forecast within 6 hours, consider delaying application.

If it already happened, check for granules that may have washed into beds or hardscapes and redistribute them.

Do I need to apply Merit every year?

If you have a consistent history of grub pressure, an annual preventive application is the most reliable approach. If you've had no grub issues for two or three consecutive years, you can consider skipping a season and monitoring. Dig a few test holes in late July to check grub populations before deciding.

Your Decision Guide: The Right Timing for Your Situation

Let's bring it all together into a clear action plan based on where you are right now.

If it's late May to mid-July and you've had grubs before: Apply Merit now. Water it in within 48 hours. You're in the sweet spot for preventive control.

If it's late May to mid-July and you've never had grubs: Monitor first. Check soil temperatures. Look for adult beetle activity.

If you're in a known high-pressure area, apply preventively. If not, you can wait and scout in late July.

If it's August and you're finding small grubs: Merit at the preventive rate may still provide some control. Apply immediately and water in. Results will be better than doing nothing but not as reliable as an early-summer application would have been.

If it's August and you're finding large grubs or seeing damage: Switch to Dylox or another curative product. Merit is the wrong tool at this stage. Treat the current problem, then plan a Merit application for next May or June.

If it's September or later: Don't apply Merit. Focus on repairing damaged turf and plan your preventive program for next spring. Fall is for evaluation and preparation, not preventive treatment.

The single most important thing you can do is stop thinking about grub control as a one-time fix and start treating it as a seasonal program. The people who consistently win against grubs aren't using a better product. They're applying the right product at the right time, year after year.

Now you know exactly when that is.

Real Scenarios: Case Examples

Let's put the timing principles into practice with three common situations.

Scenario 1: The proactive homeowner in Ohio. You had grub damage last September. Japanese beetles were all over your grapevines in late June. This year you check soil temperatures on May 25th and they're already at 58°F.

You apply Merit granules on June 2nd, water in the same evening, and check again in mid-July. No live grubs. You're done for the season.

Read also  Lawn Care Mount Holly Nj: Tips For A Healthy Lawn

Total cost: one application, properly timed.

Scenario 2: The reactive homeowner in Virginia. It's August 10th and you're seeing irregular brown patches near the driveway. You dig and find eight grubs per square foot, about three-quarters of an inch long. You apply Merit because it's what you had in the garage.

Result: partial control, maybe 40 to 50% reduction. The lawn still shows damage by September. Next year you switch to a preventive application in late May and the problem disappears.

Scenario 3: The lawn care operator in North Carolina. You manage 40 residential accounts with mixed warm-season turf. Masked chafers and Oriental beetles are your primary targets. You split your applications: half the rate in early May for the first wave, the second half in mid-June for the later-hatching Oriental beetle.

Across your accounts, you average fewer than two grubs per square foot at the September check. Your clients stop calling about skunk damage.

Each of these illustrates the same principle. Timing relative to the grub life cycle determines success far more than which product you choose.

Costs, Pricing, and What to Expect

Merit is available in both consumer and professional formulations, and the price difference is significant.

Consumer-grade Merit granules typically run $25 to $45 for a 10,000 to 16,000 square foot coverage bag. Professional formulations, available through agricultural supply distributors, cost more per unit but cover larger areas at a lower per-thousand-square-foot rate. Most homeowners treating an average quarter-acre lawn will spend $30 to $60 per application.

The real cost comparison isn't about the product price. It's about what happens when you get timing wrong. A failed grub treatment means reseeding damaged areas, dealing with animal repair, and applying again the next year.

Properly timed Merit prevents all of that.

Long-Term Optimization: Building a Grub Control Program

One application doesn't solve grub problems forever. The most effective approach is a multi-year program.

Start by identifying your primary grub species. This determines your timing window more precisely than any regional guide. Then track adult emergence dates for two consecutive years.

You'll quickly see the pattern for your specific property.

Pair Merit with good cultural practices. Overwatered, overfertilized turf attracts more egg-laying females. Mow at the proper height for your grass type.

Aerate compacted areas. Healthy turf can tolerate higher grub populations before showing visible damage.

Finally, reassess annually. If you've had three consecutive years of clean checks, consider skipping a season. Grub pressure fluctuates, and unnecessary insecticide applications add cost and environmental load without benefit.

Frequently Asked Questions

Can I apply Merit in the fall?

Merit is not recommended as a fall application for preventive control. By fall, grubs are large and the product's effectiveness drops significantly. If you're finding grubs in September, use a curative product like Dylox instead.

Plan to apply Merit the following late spring or early summer.

How long after applying Merit will grubs die?

First-instar grubs typically die within 24 to 72 hours of feeding on treated roots. You won't see dead grubs on the surface. The way to evaluate success is to dig small test holes 2 to 4 weeks after application and check for live grubs in areas where you previously had problems.

Will Merit kill earthworms?

Imidacloprid has low toxicity to earthworms at labeled application rates. University research has not shown significant earthworm population reductions from standard turf applications of Merit. The primary non-target concern is pollinators, not soil organisms.

Can I apply Merit and fertilizer at the same time?

Yes, you can apply Merit granules at the same time as a granular fertilizer, provided both products are compatible and you're following label rates for each. Many lawn care programs combine grub control with early-summer fertilization. Just make sure both products get watered in together.

What if it rains heavily right after I apply?

Moderate rain is actually helpful for watering in granular Merit. But a heavy downpour within hours of application can cause runoff, especially on slopes. If significant rain is forecast within 6 hours, consider delaying application.

If it already happened, check for granules that may have washed into beds or hardscapes and redistribute them.

Do I need to apply Merit every year?

If you have a consistent history of grub pressure, an annual preventive application is the most reliable approach. If you've had no grub issues for two or three consecutive years, you can consider skipping a season and monitoring. Dig a few test holes in late July to check grub populations before deciding.

Your Decision Guide: The Right Timing for Your Situation

Let's bring it all together into a clear action plan based on where you are right now.

If it's late May to mid-July and you've had grubs before: Apply Merit now. Water it in within 48 hours. You're in the sweet spot for preventive control.

If it's late May to mid-July and you've never had grubs: Monitor first. Check soil temperatures. Look for adult beetle activity.

If you're in a known high-pressure area, apply preventively. If not, you can wait and scout in late July.

If it's August and you're finding small grubs: Merit at the preventive rate may still provide some control. Apply immediately and water in. Results will be better than doing nothing but not as reliable as an early-summer application would have been.

If it's August and you're finding large grubs or seeing damage: Switch to Dylox or another curative product. Merit is the wrong tool at this stage. Treat the current problem, then plan a Merit application for next May or June.

If it's September or later: Don't apply Merit. Focus on repairing damaged turf and plan your preventive program for next spring. Fall is for evaluation and preparation, not preventive treatment.

The single most important thing you can do is stop thinking about grub control as a one-time fix and start treating it as a seasonal program. The people who consistently win against grubs aren't using a better product. They're applying the right product at the right time, year after year.

Now you know exactly when that is.

Your Decision Guide: The Right Timing for Your Situation

Let's bring it all together into a clear action plan based on where you are right now.

If it's late May to mid-July and you've had grubs before: Apply Merit now. Water it in within 48 hours. You're in the sweet spot for preventive control.

If it's late May to mid-July and you've never had grubs: Monitor first. Check soil temperatures. Look for adult beetle activity.

If you're in a known high-pressure area, apply preventively. If not, you can wait and scout in late July.

If it's August and you're finding small grubs: Merit at the preventive rate may still provide some control. Apply immediately and water in. Results will be better than doing nothing but not as reliable as an early-summer application would have been.

If it's August and you're finding large grubs or seeing damage: Switch to Dylox or another curative product. Merit is the wrong tool at this stage. Treat the current problem, then plan a Merit application for next May or June.

If it's September or later: Don't apply Merit. Focus on repairing damaged turf and plan your preventive program for next spring. Fall is for evaluation and preparation, not preventive treatment.

The single most important thing you can do is stop thinking about grub control as a one-time fix and start treating it as a seasonal program. The people who consistently win against grubs aren't using a better product. They're applying the right product at the right time, year after year.

Now you know exactly when that is.